Speaking as a straight cis male who's on the verge of asexuality, it's been incredibly difficult and oftentimes alienating having discussions of sexuality and sexual insecurities with my other cis male friends because a lot of the discussion tends to veer into vulgarity or jesting. Then there's the conversations you have with your partners and sometimes some of those partners implying that you're not 'man enough', etc.
I understand that a lot of this is due to toxic masculinity but I've gotta say, it's been pretty tough.
Talking about serious emotional issues or relationship problems with other men is pretty much uniformly crap. Most men are conditioned to not open up, or prefer immature viewpoints about all of that - or are just immature and crude and actually think various stupid and abusive things about women. Unfortunately some women actually prefer that.
Perhaps you think too low of yourself? There will always be people who will prefer you to think this or that. Your parents, some dickhead politicians, your peers, … You don't need everybody to like what you think.
Yeah, I hate how girls will be disgusted when it's somehow suggested you'd want to have sex with them, while at the same time, I don't feel like I'm even supposed to have an opinion.
It's like, I'm a man, not in a relationship, not gay and not good at pretending I've never heard of sexuality, so if I don't want to have sex with a girl, that must mean I find her extremely ugly.
"Whatever… stop talking to me. You clearly just want to get into my pants. What?!? You DON'T want to sleep with me? Why the eff not?! Am I not good enough for you? Not pretty enough?!"
I married my highschool girlfriend, so I’m definitely not in the know about the dating scene… but this sounds very incel-y to me.
If you’re objectively getting this kind of response, it may be that you’re pursuing the wrong type of person, or you should work on your approach. Every person is an individual, you gotta treat each person as an individual.
I'm pretty sure, that was a hyperbole, not an actual, verbatim response. Most girls won't actually say these things, because that would say a lot more (that they're conceited). But you can often tell that they're overthinking it from their reaction, which is of course difficult to portray with words.
But yeah, it should be clarified that girls are not to blame for this. Society as a whole, both men and women, are involved in passing this non-sense continually onwards.
I don't think the person was saying they would really say that they are saying that they are pointlessly calling out the elephant in the room. As a teenage girl if you aren't a gargoyle literally every teenage boy is thinking about you sexually because that is the level of hormonal reality. It's like saying stop talking to me you just have 2 eyes and 2 arms.
Not if you are old enough. The only nice part about being in my early 40s is that when I tell someone that, "yes, I'm that picky/shallow," they seem to just accept it and move on. I'm old enough that when I tell someone "this is the bare minimum that I expect," they accept that and move on.
The only strange part for me at this point is that the bare minimum I expect is that you a) are able to take care of your own needs, just as I do, b) are keeping up with your exercise routine, and will be willing to help both of us in pushing each other to better heights, and c) you aren't vapid, and can actually hold a conversation. I'm not interested in being your professor/father/educator exclusively. I want to challenge you, just as much as you challenge me.
Literally every potential partner I have met cannot fulfill these, IMHO, pretty basic requirements. The only real benefit of being this shallow/picky is that now people finally respect my choices.
a sounds reasonable. But b and c sound like big expectations where I would doubt that I could fulfill them all the time and then I would disappoint. So these two points sound to me like a lot of pressure.
They are a lot of pressure. They are the same pressure I put on myself, so yeah. Not many people push themselves the way I do, so not many people would even want to live my lifestyle. Especially as it isn't very rewarding in a material sense.
Ah then it is fine. No judgement. I just wanted to make sure you don't underestimate their implications and your wording sounded a bit like you consider them the normal baseline.
If you want to challenge them then how are b) and c) prerequisites? Where's the challenge when it's already there? If you want to be challenged then are you ready to be challenged in areas other than that? What if someone wants you to challenge to b) eat healthy home-made food every day and c) develop the grace and skill to tame a social situation with smalltalk, instead of insisting that every verbal utterance be a philosophical dissertation?
I mean, it may depend on the context, but I think it's pretty reasonable to feel uncomfortable if it's apparent that someone is thinking about having sex with you while you're just trying to have a conversation.
I'm not at all trying to say that I don't think that's reasonable. I'm complaining that I don't feel like I have an influence on the matter.
Sometimes, you accidentally say something with a double meaning that can be interpreted sexually and it's the girl who points that out and then assumes you're thinking perverted things, because she's been told anyone with a penis does that all the time.
I am annoyed by that, because I'm a big fan of girls and don't want to convey that they're just meat to entertain my sexuality. If you're reading me as a tone-deaf pervert, that will not make sense.
From the other side, for a lot of women don't just hear that people do that (though there are many firsthand accounts), they experience it. Even if you don't mean anything by it, they've likely been the victim of enough purposefully suggestive comments that they're sensitive to it. It's not really your fault, but it's not theirs, either.
Out of curiosity, do you have some examples of misconstrued phrases?
Oh yeah, for sure. I hate all the slimy idiots that can't speak with a woman without perverted comments and everyone who defends them.
I did have a specific example in mind when I wrote the above, but it happened in German, so the double meaning won't make quite as much sense:
I was working with a lady colleague on wrapping articles and whenever we had completed one, we placed it into a larger carton for shipping. Each of us had our own larger carton that we filled.
Well, and one time, I went to put my article away, but got shortly confused and then exclaimed "Oh, now I just wanted to shove it into yours.".
And then, yeah, she asked, if I'm aware what I just said, and I replied that I am, but I only noticed after I had said it. Enqueue awkward silence.
So, there was no actual problem. She was no fan of me having said that, but she understood that this happens and knew me already well enough that I was honest about it.
I just thought about it afterwards and realized that I didn't even actually desire traditional, penetrative sex with her.
I do think sexuality in general is cool, as in two consenting adults making each other feel good. And she is gorgeous. She often talked about how she visited the gym and worked on her body and one time admitted that she felt self-conscious about it.
So, there was a certain curiosity what her body looks like and I would have loved to tell her that she's a fucking dumbass for being self-conscious about it. And yeah, sure, some amount of instinctive sexual desire will be involved. I can't shut that part of my brain off completely.
But all of that is ignoring that I'm a fucking dumbass, too. I'm also self-conscious about my body. And I don't train, I actually have a reason to be self-conscious. As incumbent of the male gender role, I'm not supposed to, but that doesn't sit well with me.
I would need a lot of trust to believe that a girl actually wants to have sex with me, both because I don't find my body desirable and because I care about consent beyond yes or no. A girl enduring sex with me, just because she likes me in other ways, that sounds like the worst kind of hell for me.
But yeah, none of that mattered in that situation.
It’s cool my man, just find a partner with a similar sex drive or be open to atypical relationships. My wife has a fairly low sex drive, and mine’s not crazy but the disparity can be rough.
There’s almost certainly groups of people who feel like you do online, so if you want to, I’m sure you can find a place that feels super accepting.
But yeah, toxic masculinity/patriarchy is a bitch.
As an asexual male, I totally understand where you are coming from.
I generally don't talk about anything like that with other men of any stripe. I have a few very understanding female friends who don't judge and even then when I talk about it, it feels like I'm handing them a burden.
Speaking as a straight cis male who's on the verge of asexuality, it's been incredibly difficult and oftentimes alienating having discussions of sexuality and sexual insecurities with my other cis male friends because a lot of the discussion tends to veer into vulgarity or jesting. Then there's the conversations you have with your partners and sometimes some of those partners implying that you're not 'man enough', etc.
I understand that a lot of this is due to toxic masculinity but I've gotta say, it's been pretty tough.
Talking about serious emotional issues or relationship problems with other men is pretty much uniformly crap. Most men are conditioned to not open up, or prefer immature viewpoints about all of that - or are just immature and crude and actually think various stupid and abusive things about women. Unfortunately some women actually prefer that.
How is it relevant if some women supposedly prefer that?
To show the problem isn't all one-sided
I don't understand how this makes the problem less one-sided.
When an individual thinks abusive and stupid things about a group of people, it's that's individuals responsibility and issue.
That doesn't change just because you can maybe find a person who prefers you thinking stupid and abusive shit.
A single example is enough to prove something exists.
Decent question really. I guess I was saying that while it’s been disappointing for me, it’s considered desirable and a good attitude by some people.
Perhaps you think too low of yourself? There will always be people who will prefer you to think this or that. Your parents, some dickhead politicians, your peers, … You don't need everybody to like what you think.
I didn’t say it affected my sense of self worth.
Maybe you have unrealistic expectations. Have you tried thinking even lower of yourself?
I’ve considered it, even tried that, but it didn’t really seem to be of benefit to anyone.
Yeah, I hate how girls will be disgusted when it's somehow suggested you'd want to have sex with them, while at the same time, I don't feel like I'm even supposed to have an opinion.
It's like, I'm a man, not in a relationship, not gay and not good at pretending I've never heard of sexuality, so if I don't want to have sex with a girl, that must mean I find her extremely ugly.
"Whatever… stop talking to me. You clearly just want to get into my pants. What?!? You DON'T want to sleep with me? Why the eff not?! Am I not good enough for you? Not pretty enough?!"
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I married my highschool girlfriend, so I’m definitely not in the know about the dating scene… but this sounds very incel-y to me.
If you’re objectively getting this kind of response, it may be that you’re pursuing the wrong type of person, or you should work on your approach. Every person is an individual, you gotta treat each person as an individual.
I'm pretty sure, that was a hyperbole, not an actual, verbatim response. Most girls won't actually say these things, because that would say a lot more (that they're conceited). But you can often tell that they're overthinking it from their reaction, which is of course difficult to portray with words.
But yeah, it should be clarified that girls are not to blame for this. Society as a whole, both men and women, are involved in passing this non-sense continually onwards.
I don't think the person was saying they would really say that they are saying that they are pointlessly calling out the elephant in the room. As a teenage girl if you aren't a gargoyle literally every teenage boy is thinking about you sexually because that is the level of hormonal reality. It's like saying stop talking to me you just have 2 eyes and 2 arms.
Not if you are old enough. The only nice part about being in my early 40s is that when I tell someone that, "yes, I'm that picky/shallow," they seem to just accept it and move on. I'm old enough that when I tell someone "this is the bare minimum that I expect," they accept that and move on.
The only strange part for me at this point is that the bare minimum I expect is that you a) are able to take care of your own needs, just as I do, b) are keeping up with your exercise routine, and will be willing to help both of us in pushing each other to better heights, and c) you aren't vapid, and can actually hold a conversation. I'm not interested in being your professor/father/educator exclusively. I want to challenge you, just as much as you challenge me.
Literally every potential partner I have met cannot fulfill these, IMHO, pretty basic requirements. The only real benefit of being this shallow/picky is that now people finally respect my choices.
a sounds reasonable. But b and c sound like big expectations where I would doubt that I could fulfill them all the time and then I would disappoint. So these two points sound to me like a lot of pressure.
They are a lot of pressure. They are the same pressure I put on myself, so yeah. Not many people push themselves the way I do, so not many people would even want to live my lifestyle. Especially as it isn't very rewarding in a material sense.
Ah then it is fine. No judgement. I just wanted to make sure you don't underestimate their implications and your wording sounded a bit like you consider them the normal baseline.
If you want to challenge them then how are b) and c) prerequisites? Where's the challenge when it's already there? If you want to be challenged then are you ready to be challenged in areas other than that? What if someone wants you to challenge to b) eat healthy home-made food every day and c) develop the grace and skill to tame a social situation with smalltalk, instead of insisting that every verbal utterance be a philosophical dissertation?
Neither of your "challenges" are such. I already do both things by myself. I want to improve myself, not just maintain.
What happens when you two disagree on what would actually be an improvement?
A discussion, I would imagine. That's how I deal with disagreements between myself and others .
What if you judge it as vapid because it doesn't align with what you consider valuable improvement? What if it's nigh impossible to express verbally?
…all I'm saying, basically, is that there's unknown unknowns. Too much goal focus ensures that they'll always stay that way.
I mean, it may depend on the context, but I think it's pretty reasonable to feel uncomfortable if it's apparent that someone is thinking about having sex with you while you're just trying to have a conversation.
I'm not at all trying to say that I don't think that's reasonable. I'm complaining that I don't feel like I have an influence on the matter.
Sometimes, you accidentally say something with a double meaning that can be interpreted sexually and it's the girl who points that out and then assumes you're thinking perverted things, because she's been told anyone with a penis does that all the time.
I am annoyed by that, because I'm a big fan of girls and don't want to convey that they're just meat to entertain my sexuality. If you're reading me as a tone-deaf pervert, that will not make sense.
From the other side, for a lot of women don't just hear that people do that (though there are many firsthand accounts), they experience it. Even if you don't mean anything by it, they've likely been the victim of enough purposefully suggestive comments that they're sensitive to it. It's not really your fault, but it's not theirs, either.
Out of curiosity, do you have some examples of misconstrued phrases?
Oh yeah, for sure. I hate all the slimy idiots that can't speak with a woman without perverted comments and everyone who defends them.
I did have a specific example in mind when I wrote the above, but it happened in German, so the double meaning won't make quite as much sense:
I was working with a lady colleague on wrapping articles and whenever we had completed one, we placed it into a larger carton for shipping. Each of us had our own larger carton that we filled.
Well, and one time, I went to put my article away, but got shortly confused and then exclaimed "Oh, now I just wanted to shove it into yours.".
And then, yeah, she asked, if I'm aware what I just said, and I replied that I am, but I only noticed after I had said it. Enqueue awkward silence.
So, there was no actual problem. She was no fan of me having said that, but she understood that this happens and knew me already well enough that I was honest about it.
I just thought about it afterwards and realized that I didn't even actually desire traditional, penetrative sex with her.
I do think sexuality in general is cool, as in two consenting adults making each other feel good. And she is gorgeous. She often talked about how she visited the gym and worked on her body and one time admitted that she felt self-conscious about it.
So, there was a certain curiosity what her body looks like and I would have loved to tell her that she's a fucking dumbass for being self-conscious about it. And yeah, sure, some amount of instinctive sexual desire will be involved. I can't shut that part of my brain off completely.
But all of that is ignoring that I'm a fucking dumbass, too. I'm also self-conscious about my body. And I don't train, I actually have a reason to be self-conscious. As incumbent of the male gender role, I'm not supposed to, but that doesn't sit well with me.
I would need a lot of trust to believe that a girl actually wants to have sex with me, both because I don't find my body desirable and because I care about consent beyond yes or no. A girl enduring sex with me, just because she likes me in other ways, that sounds like the worst kind of hell for me.
But yeah, none of that mattered in that situation.
It’s cool my man, just find a partner with a similar sex drive or be open to atypical relationships. My wife has a fairly low sex drive, and mine’s not crazy but the disparity can be rough.
There’s almost certainly groups of people who feel like you do online, so if you want to, I’m sure you can find a place that feels super accepting.
But yeah, toxic masculinity/patriarchy is a bitch.
As an asexual male, I totally understand where you are coming from.
I generally don't talk about anything like that with other men of any stripe. I have a few very understanding female friends who don't judge and even then when I talk about it, it feels like I'm handing them a burden.
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Meh…embrace the toxicity and get off the internet. Be a gentleman and don't worry about it.