Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing? Sure remote graphical sessions are neat but there are only a few people who really need it or not? At least I do not see how this is really that beneficial on linux compared to just basic shell stuff that most people are using when doing something remotely. Maybe it is something that the big businesses are using but then there will probably be a discussion to really add it to the protocol directly (if that is even actually needed, waypipe is a software stack that works (with limitations) with the current protocol; wayvnc for wlroots-based compositors seems to work fine and gnome and weston also implement some kind of RDP)
Also, what do you mean “it is made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for linux native games”? Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added, just like using the pulseaudio server for pipewire until pipewire is completely supported? I am currently slowly transitioning to wayland so I don’t know if there are actually any so please tell me if it is the case or if I am missing something.
Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing?
Because it is. Use it every day. Very important feature for work.
only a few people who really need it or not?
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
wayvnc
That you even think that is a solution shows you know nothing about the problem.
Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added
Please… tell me which games you speak of? What is this list native games for Linux? I hope you don’t mean games running on Wine. That’s another huge problem that the kids all seem to just adore these days, and an entirely other argument.
If you want to game, stick to Windows. Linux is for work and those who like having a UNIX like system at home. Wayland and Wine are not for either of those.
Unfortunately your usecase is rare, so, there’s little motivation to fix it. This isn’t because everyone else “just plays around” with their computers, it’s that very few people do what you do, and so it isn’t considered the most important usecase, and devs care about more important things. Furthermore there’s NO DOWNSIDE whatsoever to making it an add-on. This can all be worked on later, it being an add-on won’t impede any progress, in fact, it’ll make it EASIER to make progress, because the core protocol will be rather solid in foundation.
Remote desktop is not what I’m talking about. Remote applications. Individual applications. Remote desktop is way too much when you want individual apps and for them to respond to your local window manager and copy & paste buffer.
No, it should be an afterthought. It’s not important at all, it’s a niche weird use case. I care way more about having a functional desktop and everything else. I’m very glad it was treated as an afterthought, because I care more about literally every other feature.
Tell me why it being an afterthought matters exactly?
It’s important to your specific niche usecase, maybe.
I’ve never needed to use network transparency, I don’t know anyone who has ever needed to use network transparency, and even if I did, i’d use waypipe… so…?
When your games have an issue, don’t blame Linux. Don’t even mention Linux. It’ll be your own fault for using a compatibility layer (Wine/Proton). The games are written for Windows, they shouldn’t get any of your money.
Because it discourages native Linux game development for something ‘good enough’ using a windows compatibility layer that really is just a large hack. That’s why I care. Games for Linux should be made naively for Linux, to bolster the Linux operating system. When wine/proton fails, people confuse it with being the fault of Linux, when it’s not. It is the fault of running software not made for Linux to begin with on a compatibility layer. Those problems unnecessarily tarnish Linux. It’s wrong, it really shouldn’t be allowed, and I’d be happy to see Wine/Proton sued out of existence to prevent it.
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
What is your definition of playing? I use it to code, access my server for some self-hosted services, do office stuff and sure, also for gaming and watching videos. Am I disallowed to wanting to develop at ease with a minimal setup compared to windows and avoid shit like forced cloud stuff because I am gaming on this os? Isn’t it my choice and compliant to free and open source software to have the freedom to use the OS one has the best experience with?
About the gaming stuff:
As I have said, I am just currently converting to wayland, so I don’t know of issues because I haven’t tried linux native games extensively. Wine doesn’t have working wayland support but is still (in my short experience) working with xwayland. Linux native games I will try soon are Cassette Beasts, Stardew Valley and maybe Cross Code at some time, all actually native games.
Why do you think waypipe should be the most important thing? Sure remote graphical sessions are neat but there are only a few people who really need it or not? At least I do not see how this is really that beneficial on linux compared to just basic shell stuff that most people are using when doing something remotely. Maybe it is something that the big businesses are using but then there will probably be a discussion to really add it to the protocol directly (if that is even actually needed, waypipe is a software stack that works (with limitations) with the current protocol; wayvnc for wlroots-based compositors seems to work fine and gnome and weston also implement some kind of RDP)
Also, what do you mean “it is made for gamers who can’t be bothered to stand up for linux native games”? Are there actually that many issues with xwayland for native games until Wayland support is added, just like using the pulseaudio server for pipewire until pipewire is completely supported? I am currently slowly transitioning to wayland so I don’t know if there are actually any so please tell me if it is the case or if I am missing something.
Because it is. Use it every day. Very important feature for work.
Those not using it are playing with their computers.
That you even think that is a solution shows you know nothing about the problem.
Please… tell me which games you speak of? What is this list native games for Linux? I hope you don’t mean games running on Wine. That’s another huge problem that the kids all seem to just adore these days, and an entirely other argument.
If you want to game, stick to Windows. Linux is for work and those who like having a UNIX like system at home. Wayland and Wine are not for either of those.
There’s really no truth to anything you’re saying here, whatsoever.
Linux is fantastic for gaming, I use it exclusively, the steam deck being a real thriving product is evidence of this.
Only core functionality should be the default, everything else SHOULD be an add-on, including remote desktop. Insane bloat is what caused X11 to fail. A fix is in the works: https://planet.kde.org/arjen-hiemstra-2023-08-08-remote-desktop-using-the-rdp-protocol-for-plasma-wayland/
Unfortunately your usecase is rare, so, there’s little motivation to fix it. This isn’t because everyone else “just plays around” with their computers, it’s that very few people do what you do, and so it isn’t considered the most important usecase, and devs care about more important things. Furthermore there’s NO DOWNSIDE whatsoever to making it an add-on. This can all be worked on later, it being an add-on won’t impede any progress, in fact, it’ll make it EASIER to make progress, because the core protocol will be rather solid in foundation.
Remote desktop is not what I’m talking about. Remote applications. Individual applications. Remote desktop is way too much when you want individual apps and for them to respond to your local window manager and copy & paste buffer.
What’s wrong with waypipe exactly?
It’s an add on, not part of the main spec. That functionality should be the most important core piece, not an afterthought.
No, it should be an afterthought. It’s not important at all, it’s a niche weird use case. I care way more about having a functional desktop and everything else. I’m very glad it was treated as an afterthought, because I care more about literally every other feature.
Tell me why it being an afterthought matters exactly?
Being able to remotely display apps from other servers and workstations is important. Games? Not at all.
It’s important to your specific niche usecase, maybe.
I’ve never needed to use network transparency, I don’t know anyone who has ever needed to use network transparency, and even if I did, i’d use waypipe… so…?
When your games have an issue, don’t blame Linux. Don’t even mention Linux. It’ll be your own fault for using a compatibility layer (Wine/Proton). The games are written for Windows, they shouldn’t get any of your money.
Mentioning steam deck is fine. Valve supports it. It’s pretty official. I don’t see why you care.
Because it discourages native Linux game development for something ‘good enough’ using a windows compatibility layer that really is just a large hack. That’s why I care. Games for Linux should be made naively for Linux, to bolster the Linux operating system. When wine/proton fails, people confuse it with being the fault of Linux, when it’s not. It is the fault of running software not made for Linux to begin with on a compatibility layer. Those problems unnecessarily tarnish Linux. It’s wrong, it really shouldn’t be allowed, and I’d be happy to see Wine/Proton sued out of existence to prevent it.
That’s a chicken-egg problem.
If they hadn’t done this first it would’ve never happened at all.
Not true. Tribes II came to Linux and it was great.
…so, you think that means that it would’ve been fine without proton? You’re dreaming.
What is your definition of playing? I use it to code, access my server for some self-hosted services, do office stuff and sure, also for gaming and watching videos. Am I disallowed to wanting to develop at ease with a minimal setup compared to windows and avoid shit like forced cloud stuff because I am gaming on this os? Isn’t it my choice and compliant to free and open source software to have the freedom to use the OS one has the best experience with?
About the gaming stuff: As I have said, I am just currently converting to wayland, so I don’t know of issues because I haven’t tried linux native games extensively. Wine doesn’t have working wayland support but is still (in my short experience) working with xwayland. Linux native games I will try soon are Cassette Beasts, Stardew Valley and maybe Cross Code at some time, all actually native games.